can of worms: what makes advocates become known as zealots
Some of you may have heard about the nurse-ins that breastfeeding ("BF") mothers have staged to increase awareness and acceptance of the natural, biological function of a woman's mammary glands. Let it be said up front and loud and clear that I am TOTALLY 100% an advocate of BF - in public, with or without a cover-up, pretty much wherever you wanna feed your baby. I nursed my kids, where and when I needed to, with or without a cover-up, and say huzzah for others who do the same. However, at SOME point, there must be some common sense that kicks in, and this is usually the point where a small group of over-zealous advocates goes too far and in fact turn people OFF from their cause.
Read this story. I was all over Gemma's cause until I found out she was fighting to nurse IN the pool. By the end the lifeguards were harrassing her everywhere, but it started off with her being asked to not nurse, IN the pool. OK - whip out a booby and feed wherever - we'll see less skin that way than half the sleezekinis (and any and all banana hammocks) walking around. And aside of the folks who want to admire boobs in a sexual way without feeling guilty or icky when there are babies stuck to them, I don't know who really is offended by that much 'flesh' so whatever. But IN THE POOL? Aside of maybe hygiene (for the baby who might swallow that chemical-laden water, not the people in the pool - there's so much pee, snot, and spit in pool water a little breastmilk ain't gonna hurt the general public) it's the utter unsafe-ness that boggles the mind - can you imagine a nursing baby getting accidentally splashed and inhaling water, or Mom losing her footing, or the slippery baby getting submerged? Yes, I've breastfed, and yes, I've tried to handle slippery kids in the pool, and yes, I've gotten countles facefulls of water AND lost my footing on the floor of even the kiddie pool, and nope, I don't see the need - it just adds up to all kinds of stupid, especially when you're using the defense you have the right to nurse wherever you want, and on demand because your baby is hungry? Get real. ~insert eye rolling here~ I guess now we wait and see who the first in-the-pool BFing mother will be to sue when they end up with a baby who drowns.
So although I never really considered where I drew the line, I've decided just now that while breastfeeding AT the pool is something I feel is a good cause, breastfeeding while IN the pool is not something I support. For the record, I'm adding walking on slippery surfaces like ice and pool decks, skydiving, slaughtering livestock, operating a motor vehicle, and mowing the lawn to the list of 'bad ideas when nursing your child.' I'm afraid I'm with the lifeguards who boot her and her submergable booby buddies out of the water. Gemma my love (et al.) - PLEASE keep advocating for BF in public - I'm in FULL support of you - but use your common sense and be safe: sit on the deck and stop trying to make it look like you're being discriminated against. No one else is allowed to eat in the pool.
Read this story. I was all over Gemma's cause until I found out she was fighting to nurse IN the pool. By the end the lifeguards were harrassing her everywhere, but it started off with her being asked to not nurse, IN the pool. OK - whip out a booby and feed wherever - we'll see less skin that way than half the sleezekinis (and any and all banana hammocks) walking around. And aside of the folks who want to admire boobs in a sexual way without feeling guilty or icky when there are babies stuck to them, I don't know who really is offended by that much 'flesh' so whatever. But IN THE POOL? Aside of maybe hygiene (for the baby who might swallow that chemical-laden water, not the people in the pool - there's so much pee, snot, and spit in pool water a little breastmilk ain't gonna hurt the general public) it's the utter unsafe-ness that boggles the mind - can you imagine a nursing baby getting accidentally splashed and inhaling water, or Mom losing her footing, or the slippery baby getting submerged? Yes, I've breastfed, and yes, I've tried to handle slippery kids in the pool, and yes, I've gotten countles facefulls of water AND lost my footing on the floor of even the kiddie pool, and nope, I don't see the need - it just adds up to all kinds of stupid, especially when you're using the defense you have the right to nurse wherever you want, and on demand because your baby is hungry? Get real. ~insert eye rolling here~ I guess now we wait and see who the first in-the-pool BFing mother will be to sue when they end up with a baby who drowns.
So although I never really considered where I drew the line, I've decided just now that while breastfeeding AT the pool is something I feel is a good cause, breastfeeding while IN the pool is not something I support. For the record, I'm adding walking on slippery surfaces like ice and pool decks, skydiving, slaughtering livestock, operating a motor vehicle, and mowing the lawn to the list of 'bad ideas when nursing your child.' I'm afraid I'm with the lifeguards who boot her and her submergable booby buddies out of the water. Gemma my love (et al.) - PLEASE keep advocating for BF in public - I'm in FULL support of you - but use your common sense and be safe: sit on the deck and stop trying to make it look like you're being discriminated against. No one else is allowed to eat in the pool.
Comments
A latched baby is (presumably) breathing through his or her nose - logically, one would have to assume that if the child was splashed in the face or unexpectedly submerged, the water would be likelier to go into their lungs than if they had their mouth open and swallowed the water into their stomachs like when they are flailing and playing. Until I see medical that this isn't the likelihood, I'm reluctant to support the issue.
I also get pretty tired of the Charter flag being waved about when there is no need. Like I said, her being asked to nurse OUT of the water I agree with. Out of sight was clearly a violation of her rights. I think they are two separate issues that should be regarded the same as someone fighting to not wear a seatbelt because it is a violation of their human rights. I missed the part in the Charter of Rights where it fully describes a person's right to be irresponsible. We have laws to protect people from themselves, and while being forced by law to buckle your kids into the car could also be determined a violation of human rights, I don't think I'm willing to go to bat on that. Most laws become laws after we've learned the hard way - by deaths or by accidents - and in the bigger scheme of things it seems like as weird a hill to die on in the fight for breastfeeding acceptance as the right to not force your kids to wear a helmet when bikeride would be.
And, of course, no one is supposed to eat in the pool. Period. That's not a violation of rights at all - it's a safety thing. If my kids get hungry while we're swimming, they have to wait until we are safely out of the pool. While I wouldn't logically expect a nursing infact to wait until we got home, I would expect my nursing infamt to survive at least a few seconds until we got out of the water.
Using the argument you can't control your children on land while nursing does little to promote your argument for nursing in the water, because kids are as likely to pull away in the water while you are nursing or not, as they are on land. I don't see the logic in stating the desires of your other children dictate your 'need' to BF IN the water - could you clarify?
So, now I'm curious... as stated, my primary concern is for the baby's safety in the chaos of the kiddie pool specifically while latched (what I think is an unnecessary risk). I would like to see an actual study done on how a bay breathes while latched - I imagine you probably have access to one of those - could you please provide me with a link?
And I say again. I refuse to put limits on my support. The City of Calgary has put a policy in place and is now breastfeeding friendly. Even in the pools if the child chooses to nurse there. Gemma will no longer be shamed and asked by the staff "if she is going to take a shit in the pool too"
Go Gemma!
There hasn't been a study done on whether it's an unnecessary risk to nurse while ice-skating or hang-gliding. This isn't a question of a mother's competence or ability to feel confident while nursing in certain situations. So until someone manages to convince their University professor to get NSERC funding for a PhD study on whether it is as safe, generally speaking, to nurse one's child in or out of the water, I'm going to err on the side of common sense.
Wow, Hope I don't think that you understand what "support" means. Cause what I hear you doing is bashing a woman who is trying to do the best she can for her and her kids. I too often nurse my chlid in the wading pool, it is easier to keep an eye on my five year old this way. I am a fairly vigilant and informed parent, who could manage to keep a baby securly attached to my breast and not drown. I have carefully weighed the risks and benifits of this situation and feel that it is relatively "safe" to nurse my children in the pool.
Go, Gemma!
Hope Walls at 7:27pm April 6
OK - so my tone may be a little sarcastic, and I intend no disrespect to Gemma or her cause. But I stand by the fact that a child who is latched and breathing through their nose is more likely to inhale water into their lungs than swallow it if they were splashed or unintentionally submerged. I'm still doing a bit of research on a few things - to determine if I'm actually off my rocker on this or not. I've actually asked Jenn to find me a bit more information because every common sense fibre in my being says, Bad Idea. I'm hoping to find out if it's considered a cultural norm to nurse in the water anywhere else in the world, if there is any statistical evidence or any direct research done on the probability of drowning in connection with latched nursing babies, etc.
(Name omitted) please don't judge me too harshly for my 'debate-speak' - I'm that sarcastic but I'm not really that much of a hard-ass. Ask (name omitted.)
I did read that (name omitted), and it suggests there is no health risk regarding toxins in the water, but it isn't specific in its defense against the threat of drowning. Small babies have their nasal passages separated from their esophageal passage, which means that while latched they would be inhaling through their nose if they were splashed or submerged while latched. I'm actually having a remarkably difficult time finding out if there has ever been a study done on it (?) and also wonder if there are other cultures where BF while in the water is the norm where they may be statistical evidence to support no increased threat of drowning. Again, going back to common sense, most people )I would think) wouldn't nurse while wading in a lake or ocean where natural waves could pose a hazard, and having been in pools enough times to experience multiple unwanted splashes it just seems a little over-zealous to be adamant about being allowed to nurse IN the water. Poolside is cool. Whip it out.
Strawman, Hope. and certainly your opinion doesn't define "common sense".
And just because something hasn't YET happened, does not therefore mean it ipso facto WILL happen. C'mon, people. If you're going to shout about studies and science, you should attempt logic yourselves!
"Our issue is not the fact that this woman was breastfeeding in public," Burke said. He added that Compton would have been charged even if the child was just sitting on her lap. "Our issue is that she created the condition that placed her child's health and safety at risk."
If there was that much splashing going on that I feared for my infant while it was nursing, I would fear for it when it was not latched on.
Accidental splashing is NOT going to drown a nursing infant.
And yup - agreed - the argument that a woman could slip while walking with the baby applies the entire time she's at the pool, nursing or not. Could happen while going to change the baby. Or arriving. Or leaving. Would you advise t woman to change her baby while standing in the water to avoid the risk of slipping?
The volume of a baby's lungs is pretty small, and a small amount of water in there can result in acute death even hours after. I'm a big girl and I've been doused with enough water in the pool to leave me gasping for air. Vanishingly small as it may be, it's still a larger risk than if Mom was a safe distance from the water altogether.
And I never said that I had any concerns about the baby swallowing water as a health risk, only inhaling water through the nose and into the lungs while latched. Icky as pool water is, yes, if you're in the pool, regardless of age or activity, you are probably going to get water in your mouth lol.
Prove to me your baby will starve if you have to walk 6 feet before starting to nurse, and I'll cave, absolutely...
Having open candid discussions is a good way to get gums flapping, to get people educated, and to help them make informed decisions. So sure it's easy to say that there is no proof that babies drown while being BF in the water - but I'm pretty confident that's because it's not a common (whether because it's common sense or necessary) thing to do. How many people do you know HAVE to be in water to BF? How many people would think to nurse in a pool? Apparently, not very many - though I have freely and still do admit until I find something to support that with facts the jury might still be out on it.
When/if BF IN pools becomes more common, perhaps we will have that kind of relevant data, but in the meantime I say, I would err on the side of getting out of the pool to nurse...
Anonyous - do you know of any resources on other cultures where BF isn't in the same sorry state as it is here that explain when/where they BF? I was on an Aussie BF support site to see if there was any correlation between warm climates and nursing in water for baby and Mom's comfort and they suggest a cool damp cloth, not sitting water.
(I also think that more often than not, aside of when it's logical and practical to nurse immediately after a water birth, few people fill their birthing tubs just to nurse... just sayin' lol ;) )
I wouldn't advise moms to change their babies in the water because they need both hands to safely do the job, which is not likely the case with nursing. Standing around nursing? I simply do not see the problem, nor why the risk of drowning would increase above that of just being in the pool at all.
Babies can unlatch.
The comment that no one would volunteer their babies to drown and thus we don't have data is just ignorant.
Babies are submerged post-oxygen all the damn time. There are swim classes for very small babies. The pools don't seem apoplectic at the chance of drowning then, and I think the idea that the risk is so exponentially higher because of being latched on is absurd.
I'd be looking for island (Fiji, Indonesia,Hawaiian, Vietnam) traditions, not Australian...proximity to water being important to develop cultural traditions. Look for fishing cultures, especially where the women work.
(sorry, did you REALLY say "acute death"? As opposed to what...the chronic type?)
AGAIN I say, not every nursing Mom is standing in shallow water to nurse. I admit I've only seen one nursing mother in the pool, and she was seated IN the water (about a foot or so deep, I guess? - I'd have to go measure) with a very tiny baby (I would guess under a month.)
I know for me personally, I wasn't a huge fan of standing around nursing with one arm - it was difficult and awkward especially as the kids got bigger, wigglier, and heavier. It wasn't necessarily safe or easy on dry land with a dry baby...lol. I much preferred being seated and having my lap and/or both arms to support my kids. Or using the sling - that was awesome!
There's no evidence that the risk you're putting forth is there. Babies are regularly nursed in tubs at home, I promise you. I'm SURE if they drowned, even if incredibly rarely, there would be large groups of BF-unfriendly media types making sure it hit the web.
I can't see it being unsafe to nurse while seated in a foot of water. Come on. Did you really never nurse in your own tub?
We're not suggesting a Bo Derek charge across the pool deck. Just sittin'/standin' around nursing.
Strawman.
And I call bullshit on the boat picture. A Cambodian woman seated (note - SEATED - because standing and nursing is usually harder than sitting lol) in a boat SHE LIVES AND WORKS ON, in what appears to be calm waters, where the children are obviously accustomed to water safety from growing up on a banana boat is NOT a fair (or logical) comparison. When's the last time you were at a pool in Canada and saw kids sitting like that? LOL - Go ahead and rest your case on that - fine by me... The kids I met in the RD who were in similar financial situations as this 3rd world subject is behave very much differently than western kids - they have been denied the same kind of freedoms our children get here, robbed of their childhood and any future hope by a lack of access to education, a proper home, and a frickin' swimming pool so someone can bitch they can't nurse in it. By that token, if the best thing you can throw at me to defend the right to stand, sit, wade, or dunk your nursing baby in the water is a picture of 3rd world citizens, then really, when you think about it, our problems are pretty fucking trivial aren't they?
These kids - they get their feet wet in the rivers to a) eat or b) catch something edible that they can sell. Not play. So you are right - it would be ridiculous to continue the argument after that picture.
And laws, even the 'good' ones that reinforce common sense in those who might lack it, don't make things 'right' or 'wrong' only punishable by law or not. (It's like a head donut for babies - how weird is that? )
When society stops having a lowest common denominator, we can stop making suggestions on how to protect people from themselves. In the meantime, I'm going to keep wearing a helmet, buckling up, and not ironing my shirts while Im wearing them.
Do you honestly think most underdeveloped countries where there are no labour laws, unions, equitable working conditions for women or children, and the kids are working along their parents by the age of 4 that those governments are able (or even willing) to keep statistics on accidental deaths by drowning? Nursing in a public pool while going swimming for leisure purposes is a CHOICE, not a NECESSITY.
I re-read the BACE report and have found that it is (rightfully, as a publication in support of BF should be) biased, and would more readily be willing to accept a detailed report done by an independent third party without an agenda.
For whatever it's worth, I wouldn't flinch if a 2-year old was standing upright and nursing themselves in a foot of water. (which ought to send some of the other zealots at the other end of the spectrum against BF past the age of 3 or 6 or 12 months into a tizzy lol) But again, putting qualifiers on the age at which a child is allowed to nurse in the water would be about as hard to determine as how deep a woman should be allowed to sit vs. stand. No eating in the pool... lol
When he is six, I will just kneel beside him and see what happens.
(it's perfectly possible to nurse any age of baby in virtually any position. That's another strawman. You're creating a firehazard.)
I doubt highly that a babe in arms knows much about water safety anywhere in the world, but I'm not about to start a debate inside the "nursing in the pool causes drowning" debate over developing nations and their childcare.
I KNOW you've been to RD. I realise it affected you. It's not germane to the discussion of nursing in water, other than if people there generally live and work very close to water. You know nothing more than I about Vietnamese culture, nor more than your brief stint showed you about RD, at this point. I celebrate your right as a wealthy citizen of a developed nation to care about those less well off in this world, and wish you well in making a tangible difference if you decide to go that distance vs paying outraged words towards it.
You're wandering off and I'm going to let you go, since you're degrading into using offensive language and turning your own request for other cultural reference points into a pointy stick to wave at me.
I certainly don't KNOW you. Please don't ever purport to KNOW anything about me - you KNOW what you see here. You KNOW factoids, miscellaneous tidbits, and the filtered contents of my brain that I selectively post here for consumption and discussion. What you see, is what I dole out, and though it may be more generous than the outpourings of others it certainly isn't all of me.
Don't bother calling me Hope, Anonymous - my name is reserved for people who are willing to at the very least share a name, and post as regulars so I get to know them a little bit instead of talking to the hood of anonymity worn with all the bravery of an executioner. You can address me as Your Majesty if you feel the need to address "wealthy enough to be magnanimous" me.
Thanks everyone for yet another enlightening and interesting debate - I'm off to finish planning my coronation! Toodles!
We can't be surprised that people are freaking out about this though... that's what over-zealous advocates do. They go LOOKING for an offense and then they overreact to the slightest of issues just to prove a point.
Let me end this by saying a. don't feel you have to publish this as I see the discussion seems to be over b. you make great points and c. I'm a HUGE advocate for breast-feeding whereever/whenever... but come one people... enough with facts, stats, and excuses, just use a little thing called common sense. Sheesh.
And if your toddler is THAT out of control that you're worried he will run back in to the pool while you take time to breastfeed, should you really be in that pool with a little baby and that toddler at the same time in the first place???